M.S. Suresh
2004-03-06 13:15:13 UTC
My Hellos to Varun, and to others probably likewise.
First of all, let me enjoy a short-lived pleasure: I am glad to have
woken up a dormant member. :)
Seconly, let me confess, i had to read Varun's email two times, line by
line. Varun, please continue to make your points (1 or 2 or many more)
in the future; i appeal likewise to the others as well. Like they say in
the American movies: "This is a matter of national security", to merit
all our attention as Indians who care about India.
Srihari, is there a way to involve other people (who "think"), into our
discussions as well? I know there exists a trashy bunch of e-groups that
bang their heads with topics such as these, but the excitement lies in
bringing those 'trash cans' together, so that the 'stink' is stronger.
After all, the "people's collective change" that Varun is talking about,
is this sort of "coming together"! :)
From my side, i am marking BCCs of this this email to a few friends of
mine; eventhough some of them are foreigners, they know about India more
than you and i do.
Sundar, what would our friend Prakash say to all this big mayhem
discussion that we are beating ourselves about? I have copied my
response to him as well. Don't be surprized if he starts his own
Political Party and asks us all to vote for him! :)
Cheers!
:)
MSS
dictatorship is one great "possible alternative to a specific context
called India, post 1947". Personally, i have advocated Bureaucracy to
replace Democracy, with a precise mention on the critical priorities.
Hope you have been following my earlier email about Muthu's model. And
yes, i am one of those people who feel "yea, we need a strongman (I like
this woman Carly Fiorina!) to make things work". There are three things
to this: One: I know that i am not strong enough to make certain things
work. Two: Strong people in India get killed and nothing is done about
it (like Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi... and no, i am not in/with
Congress). Three: I know i am not OK, but i doubt if others do: people
thought i was foolish to observe rules, but gratefully accept it when i
make a few for their benefit.
first HUGE problem in India. I have mentioned this as my first critical
priority in my Muthu's model. To start with, do you know India's "exact"
population? At a given point in time, in the USA or in some European
countries, it is possible to have a status report on how many locals,
how many foreigners, how many emmigrants and immigrants, how many
tourists are there in the homeland. Is this possible in India? And my
friend, Africa is not a nation, Africa is NOT small, and in Africa there
is no war, but just a few massacres of just around a few thousands of
women, children (like the hutus and tutsis), a few droughts and famines
to leave a few hundred or so diseased or deceased... to name a few. Are
you comparing India with Africa and other SEAsian countries? Many of
those 'smaller nations' in SE Asia are NOT in shambles; Western business
empires call those 'small' countries as havens for huge business
opportunities. Do you know that India enjoys the third or fourth most
favoured status in the SE Asian Region for business in the IT/ITES
domains? As for the 'freedom to debate', my friend, you are probably
under-informed about this item in India vis a vis other countries. Noam
Chomsky (Polish Professor in the USA) was given a Nobel Prize,
eventhough he "condemns" the USA. Is there anyone like Chomsky in India?
Even if there is one, will he/she dare put forth opinions the way
Chomsky does? Even if he/she does, will he be given atleast a
"recognition", though not a Bharat Ratna or a Nobel Prize? USA is a
place where people not only "debate", they also "act". In India, we can
do neither; even if we do atleast one, we either ape the West, or we
don't do it efficiently. Again: "Sad, but True". (Metallica may be
American, Heavy Metal may be American, but the Spirit and the Power of
Metal is Universal! 8-) )
Response-MSS: Hey, don't call me a whiner - i am more proud an Indian
than any other Indian who runs away to the USA. India is a civilization
that is over 5000 years old - for that matter - remnants, knowledge and
history since 5000 BC still do exist. The "United States of America"
that we all know, is just since the 17th Century AD. India has seen
diverse Systems of Governance, but could not hold on to any single one
eventhough we had Vishnugupta Chanakya, Manu and others who produced the
great Manuals and Shashtras for Strategies and Administration, War,
Family... etc. What India now has are the remains of the dogfoodbullshit
excreted at our faces by the Britons since 19th Century: the 100 odd
times re-written Constitution with full of loopholes, dilapidated
Buildings, frequently bombed railroads, plundered Temple Wealth,
mal-adapted western culture, lack of a National Identity... to name just
a few. Please bear in mind that Americans, since their 1774-1776,
constituted their own "Democracy", Culture, Language (oh, for those who
didnot know, the language spoken in the USA is NOT English, it is called
"American"), Religion etc., and are yet consistently since then 75%
ahead of India in their growth factor. Unless someone is on
hallucinogens, i think such unfortunate realities about why "India is
sick" would certainly "wake up" any true Indian. About your other points
about the basic attitude - i perfectly agree with you, (i don't do
sports or cricket or break traffic rules) that is why i say we need a
strong arm to enforce and implement rules. You understood it as
dictatorship, i call it bureaucracy.
heaven. Why then are they able to accomplish what they wanted, whilst
you, Muthu and i keep "whining" about our inabilities or selfishly mind
our own business of securing personal interests? We are the "Pushpaka
Vimaanams" that have brought those Politicians from heaven. We Indians,
sinful sinners, have sinfully sinned by sinfully committing a sinful act
called voting. How will we blissfully be absolved of all our sinful sins?
because you did not like this rotten India with its corrupt systems?
Forgive me dear friend, but your understanding about the USA (and about
Indians likewise) requires a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot of
corrections. For your information, i am part of a company that conducts
Inter-Cultural Sensitization Programmes for IT Companies sending their
professionals going abroad - would you like to attend one of our Courses
on American Inter-Cultural Sensitization?
forgive me again my dear dear friend, but you must know that since my
school days (since 1986), i have been involved with a number of
presentations and discussion forums where a lot of english (such as
above) was rattled among us contenders, with more colour and vigour; one
good thing was that my work and participations won me prizes that gave
me a kind of 'kick' when teenaged girls looked at me admiringly.
However, unless someone is on hallucinogens, looks like everyone has to
undergo a passing phase like myself. Forgive me, but how old are you?
Secondly, are you an RSS/BJP/VHP/Bajrang Dhal
worker/activist/sympathizer/voter/member/associated in any kind? Or
atleast, are you a Congress hater? Hey, are you Varun Gandhi, son of
Maneka Gandhi, in disguise? I liked Indira Gandhi, i liked Rajiv Gandhi,
but it is quite unfortunate and a rude shock that they were
assassinated; now, i like this woman Maneka Gandhi as well; may she live
long!
________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iluIndia/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
iluIndia-unsubscribe-***@public.gmane.org
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
First of all, let me enjoy a short-lived pleasure: I am glad to have
woken up a dormant member. :)
Seconly, let me confess, i had to read Varun's email two times, line by
line. Varun, please continue to make your points (1 or 2 or many more)
in the future; i appeal likewise to the others as well. Like they say in
the American movies: "This is a matter of national security", to merit
all our attention as Indians who care about India.
Srihari, is there a way to involve other people (who "think"), into our
discussions as well? I know there exists a trashy bunch of e-groups that
bang their heads with topics such as these, but the excitement lies in
bringing those 'trash cans' together, so that the 'stink' is stronger.
After all, the "people's collective change" that Varun is talking about,
is this sort of "coming together"! :)
From my side, i am marking BCCs of this this email to a few friends of
mine; eventhough some of them are foreigners, they know about India more
than you and i do.
Sundar, what would our friend Prakash say to all this big mayhem
discussion that we are beating ourselves about? I have copied my
response to him as well. Don't be surprized if he starts his own
Political Party and asks us all to vote for him! :)
Cheers!
:)
MSS
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:48:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Varun Venkateswaran
Subject: Re: bureaucracy vs democracy, utopia and dr apj abdul kalaam
I have been a dormant member, so i dont know whether u guys knew me....but i have a point(or 2) to make...
dictatorship will never work...it has never worked anywhere in the world...India is better off with democracy... if d'ship is panacea to all ills then Pakistan should be way above us!! Very often people look at the mess around them and decide "yea we need a strongman to make things work"...but when they say that (I don't know about you) they dont really consider themselves, they are talking about the rest,
"only they need to be controlled, not me i am ok...."
Response-MSS: I never said dictatorship will work. I only say,From: Varun Venkateswaran
Subject: Re: bureaucracy vs democracy, utopia and dr apj abdul kalaam
I have been a dormant member, so i dont know whether u guys knew me....but i have a point(or 2) to make...
dictatorship will never work...it has never worked anywhere in the world...India is better off with democracy... if d'ship is panacea to all ills then Pakistan should be way above us!! Very often people look at the mess around them and decide "yea we need a strongman to make things work"...but when they say that (I don't know about you) they dont really consider themselves, they are talking about the rest,
"only they need to be controlled, not me i am ok...."
dictatorship is one great "possible alternative to a specific context
called India, post 1947". Personally, i have advocated Bureaucracy to
replace Democracy, with a precise mention on the critical priorities.
Hope you have been following my earlier email about Muthu's model. And
yes, i am one of those people who feel "yea, we need a strongman (I like
this woman Carly Fiorina!) to make things work". There are three things
to this: One: I know that i am not strong enough to make certain things
work. Two: Strong people in India get killed and nothing is done about
it (like Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi... and no, i am not in/with
Congress). Three: I know i am not OK, but i doubt if others do: people
thought i was foolish to observe rules, but gratefully accept it when i
make a few for their benefit.
If u see the countries that attained independence after world war II (like us)....in africa, indonesia etc etc...only india is doing well despite its huge(monstrous?) population, a society divided in every possible way-language, religion, status, caste and what not....those smaller nations were not so much at a disadvantage as us...today they are in shambles, why? becos the very leaders who got them freedom (or someone else who came later) turned into corrupt despots...suharto, mobutu and the ilk- the first few years everything will be good, no crime(becos he will be the only one left!!) peace etc, but slowly it begins to unravel...u can see it today!
In contrast, India has done remarkably well - we have built atleast a foundation, a launch pad, future progress is in the hands of her people...it is a vibrant society where u and me have the freedom(u might ask "really?". "Yes!!") to debate (unlike China, where they run down dissent with tanks) about what is wrong with the country, we can question the leaders, we can throw them out of power (although i doubt whether we use it)
Response-MSS: Let me re-phrase your first sentence: Population is theIn contrast, India has done remarkably well - we have built atleast a foundation, a launch pad, future progress is in the hands of her people...it is a vibrant society where u and me have the freedom(u might ask "really?". "Yes!!") to debate (unlike China, where they run down dissent with tanks) about what is wrong with the country, we can question the leaders, we can throw them out of power (although i doubt whether we use it)
first HUGE problem in India. I have mentioned this as my first critical
priority in my Muthu's model. To start with, do you know India's "exact"
population? At a given point in time, in the USA or in some European
countries, it is possible to have a status report on how many locals,
how many foreigners, how many emmigrants and immigrants, how many
tourists are there in the homeland. Is this possible in India? And my
friend, Africa is not a nation, Africa is NOT small, and in Africa there
is no war, but just a few massacres of just around a few thousands of
women, children (like the hutus and tutsis), a few droughts and famines
to leave a few hundred or so diseased or deceased... to name a few. Are
you comparing India with Africa and other SEAsian countries? Many of
those 'smaller nations' in SE Asia are NOT in shambles; Western business
empires call those 'small' countries as havens for huge business
opportunities. Do you know that India enjoys the third or fourth most
favoured status in the SE Asian Region for business in the IT/ITES
domains? As for the 'freedom to debate', my friend, you are probably
under-informed about this item in India vis a vis other countries. Noam
Chomsky (Polish Professor in the USA) was given a Nobel Prize,
eventhough he "condemns" the USA. Is there anyone like Chomsky in India?
Even if there is one, will he/she dare put forth opinions the way
Chomsky does? Even if he/she does, will he be given atleast a
"recognition", though not a Bharat Ratna or a Nobel Prize? USA is a
place where people not only "debate", they also "act". In India, we can
do neither; even if we do atleast one, we either ape the West, or we
don't do it efficiently. Again: "Sad, but True". (Metallica may be
American, Heavy Metal may be American, but the Spirit and the Power of
Metal is Universal! 8-) )
What is wrong with India?...rome was not built in a day, america took ages to develop, development is a continuous and painfully slow process and Indians are whiners(Sorry to say that, that included me too), we will complain about politicians being rogues, law breakers- but we ourselves do that everyday in our life, in a smaller scale-- like going down a one-way("what everybody does, why not me!!")...and if the cop catches u, u curse him for being dutiful only when it comes to you ...and try to bribe him, thereby emboldening the cop to keep demanding bribes..., like littering the streets(ditto), like getting a license thro a tout becos u think that is the only way to do that, u never care to find out the procedure,u go straight to the tout to finish the job quickly as if he is the RTO...and justify it again .."uff, so many procedures(as if u know), who has the time??"....but u will sit
glued to the television for 8 hours seeing the India-Pak match.Response-MSS: Hey, don't call me a whiner - i am more proud an Indian
than any other Indian who runs away to the USA. India is a civilization
that is over 5000 years old - for that matter - remnants, knowledge and
history since 5000 BC still do exist. The "United States of America"
that we all know, is just since the 17th Century AD. India has seen
diverse Systems of Governance, but could not hold on to any single one
eventhough we had Vishnugupta Chanakya, Manu and others who produced the
great Manuals and Shashtras for Strategies and Administration, War,
Family... etc. What India now has are the remains of the dogfoodbullshit
excreted at our faces by the Britons since 19th Century: the 100 odd
times re-written Constitution with full of loopholes, dilapidated
Buildings, frequently bombed railroads, plundered Temple Wealth,
mal-adapted western culture, lack of a National Identity... to name just
a few. Please bear in mind that Americans, since their 1774-1776,
constituted their own "Democracy", Culture, Language (oh, for those who
didnot know, the language spoken in the USA is NOT English, it is called
"American"), Religion etc., and are yet consistently since then 75%
ahead of India in their growth factor. Unless someone is on
hallucinogens, i think such unfortunate realities about why "India is
sick" would certainly "wake up" any true Indian. About your other points
about the basic attitude - i perfectly agree with you, (i don't do
sports or cricket or break traffic rules) that is why i say we need a
strong arm to enforce and implement rules. You understood it as
dictatorship, i call it bureaucracy.
Politicians have not descended from heaven, they are people like u and me and Muthu, so they continue doing it even after coming to power !! It sets in a vicious circle...people corrupt, so politicians corrupt, so people corrupt/indifferent.....
Response-MSS: My friend, Politicians certainly have descended fromheaven. Why then are they able to accomplish what they wanted, whilst
you, Muthu and i keep "whining" about our inabilities or selfishly mind
our own business of securing personal interests? We are the "Pushpaka
Vimaanams" that have brought those Politicians from heaven. We Indians,
sinful sinners, have sinfully sinned by sinfully committing a sinful act
called voting. How will we blissfully be absolved of all our sinful sins?
This is where USA (yes, the country Indians consider to be immoral) is different, people may be ignorant about other nations or their history, but when it comes to their law they know like the back of their hand. And abide rules. Their private lives maybe all screwed up, but their public life is still impeccable. That is why even though there are some corrupt politicians, inept bureaucracy(govt. offices are slow here too!!), it does not permeate thru the society, the base of the pyramid is still solid!
Response-MSS: Oh, so you admire USA and you are presently staying therebecause you did not like this rotten India with its corrupt systems?
Forgive me dear friend, but your understanding about the USA (and about
Indians likewise) requires a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot of
corrections. For your information, i am part of a company that conducts
Inter-Cultural Sensitization Programmes for IT Companies sending their
professionals going abroad - would you like to attend one of our Courses
on American Inter-Cultural Sensitization?
So, the solution lies in correcting the base of the pyramid, the people.
How do you do that? Not actually by d'ship or bureaucracy or even literacy (even educated people break laws!!..more than illiterates i would say)...it needs a collective change in the attitude of the people, it is not gonna come in one day or one decade, it is a continuous. painfully slow process...It has been happening for the last 55 years, it may have faltered in between or slowed down, but the spark is still there...in this data age, people are getting more and more knowledgeable and questioning..so it will happen a bit faster than the prev. generation. The utopia will not happen in 2020, it is happening and the changes will be tangible, years down the line. Something like, u know -- we never realise that we are getting old every day but 20 years down the line we will know that for sure !!
India has been shining always, like the sun behind the clouds, the BJP has been shrewd to realise it and is tapping it, claiming credit for inventing (or discovering?) the sun, when it has been there all the time. Congress and co., sadly, continue to delude themselves that there is no sun !
And the population is already showing signs off stabilising...it will... huge population may not be a bad thing, after all the world is made up of humans, and people means power, today the Indian diaspora is spread all over the world, they already considerable forces to reckon with in many nations - so there may be a day when the nation with the largest number of people gets a better bargain, gets to control the world.
Your Holiness Swamiji, may your fortune-telling come true! However,How do you do that? Not actually by d'ship or bureaucracy or even literacy (even educated people break laws!!..more than illiterates i would say)...it needs a collective change in the attitude of the people, it is not gonna come in one day or one decade, it is a continuous. painfully slow process...It has been happening for the last 55 years, it may have faltered in between or slowed down, but the spark is still there...in this data age, people are getting more and more knowledgeable and questioning..so it will happen a bit faster than the prev. generation. The utopia will not happen in 2020, it is happening and the changes will be tangible, years down the line. Something like, u know -- we never realise that we are getting old every day but 20 years down the line we will know that for sure !!
India has been shining always, like the sun behind the clouds, the BJP has been shrewd to realise it and is tapping it, claiming credit for inventing (or discovering?) the sun, when it has been there all the time. Congress and co., sadly, continue to delude themselves that there is no sun !
And the population is already showing signs off stabilising...it will... huge population may not be a bad thing, after all the world is made up of humans, and people means power, today the Indian diaspora is spread all over the world, they already considerable forces to reckon with in many nations - so there may be a day when the nation with the largest number of people gets a better bargain, gets to control the world.
forgive me again my dear dear friend, but you must know that since my
school days (since 1986), i have been involved with a number of
presentations and discussion forums where a lot of english (such as
above) was rattled among us contenders, with more colour and vigour; one
good thing was that my work and participations won me prizes that gave
me a kind of 'kick' when teenaged girls looked at me admiringly.
However, unless someone is on hallucinogens, looks like everyone has to
undergo a passing phase like myself. Forgive me, but how old are you?
Secondly, are you an RSS/BJP/VHP/Bajrang Dhal
worker/activist/sympathizer/voter/member/associated in any kind? Or
atleast, are you a Congress hater? Hey, are you Varun Gandhi, son of
Maneka Gandhi, in disguise? I liked Indira Gandhi, i liked Rajiv Gandhi,
but it is quite unfortunate and a rude shock that they were
assassinated; now, i like this woman Maneka Gandhi as well; may she live
long!
________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iluIndia/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
iluIndia-unsubscribe-***@public.gmane.org
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/