I read your email. You appear to be one intelligent, enthusiastic youngster, full of hopes and
promises, with a luxury of studying in a foreign country. I am quite grateful for your kind
attention: how long did you take to type out your response? I took about two hours with your email
(not that i don't have other things to do, though), and even discussed itwith my friends' circle
subsequently; see, i do respect you and your views.
How are you doing now and how was your weekend? Do you still want to havemy response to your email,
What about the others in this group, still require free entertainment from Varun and myself? Varun,
why don't you and i form a "Coalition" and start billing the other guys in this group? There is no
Cheers.
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:43:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Varun's counter response to MSS's on bureaucracy, democracy, etc.
Thanks for stirring me up, i was just quiet not asleep.
I have my own responses to yours(in bold) but before that I would make a point or two...
You confess to have read my email 2 times, line by line, but still u have wrongly interpreted some points...
the word 'you' in my article did not mean you, M.S.Suresh, but majorityof Indians.
Your responses have bordered more on questioning the credibility of thewriter, me, (and consequently on who you are) and less on my writing. Even if I have no qualifications (i feel no one needs one on these topics),even if i am a right wing sympathizer or whatever you think I am, I have right to talk and you should focus on what I am saying and not on me, Dispute my points instead of asking who I am. I do not think this group isonly for people with certain qualifications.
When I replied to ur points Idid not care about who you were, I didn't ask u- are u a left/Congress sympathizer (since u feel I could be a rightist and since u have opposite views u should be a left leaner?), because I know there a lot of people who fall in the centre. I know this group's motto and i do not function as a 'pro-this' or 'pro-that'
Anyway since u are curious, I am 22 years old, Masters student at the University of Michigan, I have a mind to perceive things around me, a mouth to talk and hands to write. Of course I am curious to know who you guysare, but I think that is irrelevant to this topic. So I didn't ask.
If possible send my response too to your friends.
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:48:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Varun Venkateswaran
Subject: Re: bureaucracy vs democracy, utopia and dr apj abdul kalaam
dictatorship will never work...it has never worked anywhere in the world...India is better off with democracy... if d'ship is panacea to all ills then Pakistan should be way above us!! Very often people look at the mess around them and decide "yea we need a strongman to make things work"...but when they say that (I don't know about you) they dont really consider themselves, they are talking about the rest,
"only they need to be controlled, not me i am ok...."
Response-MSS: I never said dictatorship will work. I only say,
dictatorship is one great "possible alternative to a specific context
called India, post 1947". Personally, i have advocated Bureaucracy to
replace Democracy, with a precise mention on the critical priorities.
Hope you have been following my earlier email about Muthu's model. And
yes, i am one of those people who feel "yea, we need a strongman (I like
this woman Carly Fiorina!) to make things work". There are three things
to this: One: I know that i am not strong enough to make certain things
work. Two: Strong people in India get killed and nothing is done about
it (like Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi... and no, i am not in/with
Congress). Three: I know i am not OK, but i doubt if others do: people
thought i was foolish to observe rules, but gratefully accept it when i
make a few for their benefit.
No, even I never thought u said d'ship would work. U said it is one of the alternatives, I said " no rule out that alternative because it is notgonna work". I still stand by my views on other things mentioned above. India already has a bureaucratic set-up (as my friend Raja Bharathi wouldknow) - with a clear hierarchy, leaders, managers, responsibility and all that u mentioned thru the Muthu's model. There are built in checks and tabs in the system. I said it is like a pyramid, u called it a hierarchy.So why is the system not 100% efficient - there are a number of reasons-I will set it for another debate. Also, Rajiv Gandhi was not really strong person (no , i am not getting into politics and I am not in/with BJP)
If u see the countries that attained independence after world war II (like us)....in africa, indonesia etc etc...only india is doing well despite its huge(monstrous?) population, a society divided in every possible way-language, religion, status, caste and what not....those smaller nationswere not so much at a disadvantage as us...today they are in shambles, why? becos the very leaders who got them freedom (or someone else who came later) turned into corrupt despots...suharto, mobutu and the ilk- the first few years everything will be good, no crime(becos he will be the only one left!!) peace etc, but slowly it begins to unravel...u can see it today!
In contrast, India has done remarkably well - we have built atleast a foundation, a launch pad, future progress is in the hands of her people...it is a vibrant society where u and me have the freedom(u might ask "really?". "Yes!!") to debate (unlike China, where they run down dissent with tanks) about what is wrong with the country, we can question the leaders,we can throw them out of power (although i doubt whether we use it)
Response-MSS: Let me re-phrase your first sentence: Population is the
first HUGE problem in India. I have mentioned this as my first critical
priority in my Muthu's model. To start with, do you know India's "exact"
population? At a given point in time, in the USA or in some European
countries, it is possible to have a status report on how many locals,
how many foreigners, how many emmigrants and immigrants, how many
tourists are there in the homeland. Is this possible in India? And my
friend, Africa is not a nation, Africa is NOT small, and in Africa there
is no war, but just a few massacres of just around a few thousands of
women, children (like the hutus and tutsis), a few droughts and famines
to leave a few hundred or so diseased or deceased... to name a few. Are
you comparing India with Africa and other SEAsian countries? Many of
those 'smaller nations' in SE Asia are NOT in shambles; Western business
empires call those 'small' countries as havens for huge business
opportunities. Do you know that India enjoys the third or fourth most
favoured status in the SE Asian Region for business in the IT/ITES
domains? As for the 'freedom to debate', my friend, you are probably
under-informed about this item in India vis a vis other countries. Noam
Chomsky (Polish Professor in the USA) was given a Nobel Prize,
eventhough he "condemns" the USA. Is there anyone like Chomsky in India?
Even if there is one, will he/she dare put forth opinions the way
Chomsky does? Even if he/she does, will he be given atleast a
"recognition", though not a Bharat Ratna or a Nobel Prize? USA is a
place where people not only "debate", they also "act". In India, we can
do neither; even if we do atleast one, we either ape the West, or we
don't do it efficiently. Again: "Sad, but True". (Metallica may be
American, Heavy Metal may be American, but the Spirit and the Power of
Metal is Universal! 8-) )
Varun's response: I know Africa is not a nation, atleast that much I know. Probably I phrased the sentence wrongly - I am sorry, By saying "in Africa" I meant the countries that make up Africa the continent.
War is not necessarily fought between two nations on a battlefield, If u meant that that then i accept there is no war - but haven't u heard of terms "internal civil war" (u know USA right?), a war fought between govt. and forces inimical to it. Such wars come by a dozen in Africa - there is a war between hutus and tutsis (not some local feud between two villages) and often Hutu majority nations(or vice versa) covertly support theHutu rebels in neighboring Tutsi majority country- so that is "proxy war" (u know India too). It is happening in Rwanda, somalia, zaire etc etc. and Since when did death of a few thousands become so cheap an amount? Man, that is war! The result of the years of war and plundering was famine, disease etc. That is what is happening in all those nations, despitebeing so rich in natural resources.
The point about africa or indonesia was made in the context of dictatorship. And yes i am comparing India with african and SEAsian conutries, because we all got freedom at the same time, we were all part of NAM, and India was a source of inspiration to the freedom movements in these nations.
You have not really disputed my point and your argument is weak and specious.insofar, MFN is concerned where do these SE asian countries stand in other regions? India is doing really well compared to them: in space, defense, food production, IT, maufacturing, retail. The south east asian economy went bust a long time back, so many people were thrown out of their jobs (u can read articles about that, I have done an essay on that). India had only one crisis in '91 and we have recovered really well(thanks to Cong, which has sadly not realised that it is the reason and is running an 'India cheated' campaign).
I did not compare 'freedom to debate' with USA, (how could i do that, since I admire them so much as you say), I compared with China. (Read escape from china by zhang boli). In India we have Arundhati Roy, Medha Patkar,Bahuguna etc all very well recognised in national and international circles and the govt has not raised a finger against them(only the courts did).Even Dr. Ambedkar was a dissident in a way - isn't he recognised? Noam Chomsky(born in US, son of a Russian immigrant) supports US govt on many issues, he himself has said that. His winning the Nobel Prize is news to me, thank u. and yes we ape the west: bureaucracy and red tape are legacies of the British.
What is wrong with India?...rome was not built in a day, america took ages to develop, development is a continuous and painfully slow process and Indians are whiners(Sorry to say that, that included me too), we will complain about politicians being rogues, law breakers- but we ourselves dothat everyday in our life, in a smaller scale-- like going down a one-way("what everybody does, why not me!!")...and if the cop catches u, u curse him for being dutiful only when it comes to you ...and try to bribe him, thereby emboldening the cop to keep demanding bribes..., like litteringthe streets(ditto), like getting a license thro a tout becos u think that is the only way to do that, u never care to find out the procedure,u gostraight to the tout to finish the job quickly as if he is the RTO...andjustify it again .."uff, so many procedures(as if u know), who has the time??"....but u will sit glued to the television for 8 hours seeing the India-Pak match.
Response-MSS: Hey, don't call me a whiner - i am more proud an Indian
than any other Indian who runs away to the USA. India is a civilization
that is over 5000 years old - for that matter - remnants, knowledge and
history since 5000 BC still do exist. The "United States of America"
that we all know, is just since the 17th Century AD. India has seen
diverse Systems of Governance, but could not hold on to any single one
eventhough we had Vishnugupta Chanakya, Manu and others who produced the
great Manuals and Shashtras for Strategies and Administration, War,
Family... etc. What India now has are the remains of the dogfoodbullshit
excreted at our faces by the Britons since 19th Century: the 100 odd
times re-written Constitution with full of loopholes, dilapidated
Buildings, frequently bombed railroads, plundered Temple Wealth,
mal-adapted western culture, lack of a National Identity... to name just
a few. Please bear in mind that Americans, since their 1774-1776,
constituted their own "Democracy", Culture, Language (oh, for those who
didnot know, the language spoken in the USA is NOT English, it is called
"American"), Religion etc., and are yet consistently since then 75%
ahead of India in their growth factor. Unless someone is on
hallucinogens, i think such unfortunate realities about why "India is
sick" would certainly "wake up" any true Indian. About your other points
about the basic attitude - i perfectly agree with you, (i don't do
sports or cricket or break traffic rules) that is why i say we need a
strong arm to enforce and implement rules. You understood it as
dictatorship, i call it bureaucracy.
Varun's response: Again , u have talked about yourself, but my point still remains, majority of indians break the law in small ways.u may be anexception. Thanks for agreeing with me. Strong arm tactics will work in small countries like Singapore(smaller than chennai), will simply not function in countries like India. Govt. can only frame rules, implement themto an extent, but the onus is on the people to follow them.
Politicians have not descended from heaven, they are people like u and me and Muthu, so they continue doing it even after coming to power !! It sets in a vicious circle...people corrupt, so politicians corrupt, so people corrupt/indifferent.....
Response-MSS: My friend, Politicians certainly have descended from
heaven. Why then are they able to accomplish what they wanted, whilst
you, Muthu and i keep "whining" about our inabilities or selfishly mind
our own business of securing personal interests? We are the "Pushpaka
Vimaanams" that have brought those Politicians from heaven. We Indians,
sinful sinners, have sinfully sinned by sinfully committing a sinful act
called voting. How will we blissfully be absolved of all our sinful sins?
Varun's response: Politicians are from good old earth, only they are more enterprising. They know the ways(we too know) to make money and are willing to dirty their hands to dig out the gold. They are big time thieves. You, Muthu and I are not risk-takers. And we tend to vote for the better evil, if at all we vote, not to a number of sincere independents who are in the fray. We do not care about them and we think our vote will be wasted. That's true in a way. The democracy, that is India, has come up with a solution thru' its bureaucratic arm, the EC, to regulate criminalisation of politics.
This is where USA (yes, the country Indians consider to be immoral) is different, people may be ignorant about other nations or their history, but when it comes to their law they know like the back of their hand. And abide rules. Their private lives maybe all screwed up, but their public life is still impeccable. That is why even though there are some corrupt politicians, inept bureaucracy(govt. offices are slow here too!!), it doesnot permeate thru the society, the base of the pyramid is still solid!
Response-MSS: Oh, so you admire USA and you are presently staying there
because you did not like this rotten India with its corrupt systems?
Forgive me dear friend, but your understanding about the USA (and about
Indians likewise) requires a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot, lot of
corrections. For your information, i am part of a company that conducts
Inter-Cultural Sensitization Programmes for IT Companies sending their
professionals going abroad - would you like to attend one of our Courses
on American Inter-Cultural Sensitization?
Varun's response:- This is where I found ur response to be directed against me, not my view. So what if I am in US, so what if i point out the good things in it- just dispute my point. And u did not. My point was US people by and large follow laws, not about inter-cultural whatever.In India this is lacking, i dint say it is rotten, only u say it is sick. I praised US only on this count. Not anything else. Maybe in other aspects my judgement of US needs a lot, lot,....corrections. And I will sure attend your course someday.
So, the solution lies in correcting the base of the pyramid, the people.
How do you do that? Not actually by d'ship or bureaucracy or even literacy (even educated people break laws!!..more than illiterates i would say)...it needs a collective change in the attitude of the people, it is notgonna come in one day or one decade, it is a continuous. painfully slow process...It has been happening for the last 55 years, it may have faltered in between or slowed down, but the spark is still there...in this dataage, people are getting more and more knowledgeable and questioning..so it will happen a bit faster than the prev. generation. The utopia will not happen in 2020, it is happening and the changes will be tangible, yearsdown the line. Something like, u know -- we never realise that we are getting old every day but 20 years down the line we will know that for sure!!
India has been shining always, like the sun behind the clouds, the BJP has been shrewd to realise it and is tapping it, claiming credit for inventing (or discovering?) the sun, when it has been there all the time. Congress and co., sadly, continue to delude themselves that there is no sun !
And the population is already showing signs off stabilising...it will... huge population may not be a bad thing, after all the world is made up of humans, and people means power, today the Indian diaspora is spread all over the world, they already considerable forces to reckon with in many nations - so there may be a day when the nation with the largest number of people gets a better bargain, gets to control the world.
Your Holiness Swamiji, may your fortune-telling come true! However,
forgive me again my dear dear friend, but you must know that since my
school days (since 1986), i have been involved with a number of
presentations and discussion forums where a lot of english (such as
above) was rattled among us contenders, with more colour and vigour; one
good thing was that my work and participations won me prizes that gave
me a kind of 'kick' when teenaged girls looked at me admiringly.
However, unless someone is on hallucinogens, looks like everyone has to
undergo a passing phase like myself. Forgive me, but how old are you?
Secondly, are you an RSS/BJP/VHP/Bajrang Dhal
worker/activist/sympathizer/voter/member/associated in any kind? Or
atleast, are you a Congress hater? Hey, are you Varun Gandhi, son of
Maneka Gandhi, in disguise? I liked Indira Gandhi, i liked Rajiv Gandhi,
but it is quite unfortunate and a rude shock that they were
assassinated; now, i like this woman Maneka Gandhi as well; may she live
long!
Varun's response- Again this one borders on sarcasm, remarks like swamiji etc.. In that entire response not one point of urs disputed my argument, u were casting aspersions on me and questioning my locus standi. Probably you could not find anything wrong in what i was saying.I dont know how u got that impression but nowhere in my article i have praised the BJP for its governance. I said it is shrewd or cunning, if that tantamounts to sympathizing, i can't help it. I can debate about Vajpayee too, if thatwill convice you
Regards
Varun (not related to Gandhi)
_______________________
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster.
[This message contained attachments]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
------------------------------------------------------------------------